On pronouns

[jedusor]

I don't know firsthand what it's like to be misgendered; I'm mostly cis, enough to be comfortable with the pronouns people generally assume apply to me. (I do actively dislike being referred to as a "woman" or a "lady" and strongly prefer "person" unless gender is pertinent information to include in the conversation--which it almost never is--but it's not upsetting on the level of misgendering.) But I once corrected a friend on someone else's pronouns and was incredibly taken aback by his derisive eyeroll, and that gave me a little bit of an idea of what trans people have to deal with. It's easy for me to assume that because someone is progressive in other ways, and is part of social circles that are generally safe spaces, that they understand and are supportive of gender diversity. But there's no way to predict that for sure. Every time a trans person corrects someone who misgenders them, they run the risk of being shamed or dismissed. I think that sucks.

For the last year or so, I've been making an effort to incorporate "what pronouns do you prefer?" into introductory small talk when meeting a new person in fandom, along with name and location and such, and to use "they" when I don't know someone's preferred pronouns. Of course fandom isn't the only community where the question is relevant, but it's the only one in my life where pretty much everyone automatically gets what I'm talking about and gives a helpful answer. I've never had a negative reaction, and there have been a few "oh, that's awesome, I should start doing that" responses.

In theory, I'd like to do this with everyone I meet. In practice, it is not always helpful to initiate a discussion of gender politics while shaking hands, and a lot of people would be offended by the implication that their gender wasn't obvious from their presentation. When I worked in retail, I had to heuristically assume gender constantly, because I was expected to address people as "sir" or "ma'am." Now that I don't have to do that, I generally don't use those terms. It's pretty much impossible to go through life without assuming anyone's gender at all, but it's possible to be aware of doing it and avoid it when it's not necessary, and I'm working on that.

Comments

[mh75.livejournal.com]

The kids persistently mis-gender one of our mutual friends. Its a pretty understandable mistake, but our kids are generally in sync with the most commonly assumed genders (as opposed to some friends' kids who mis-gendered everyone) so it feels like a pretty egregious and offensive error. Josh and i continually correct them, with the explanation of 'because she is a girl' when they ask why. I wonder if we would get more traction/better teaching if we said 'because she prefers it this way'?? I will give it a try.

[jedusor.livejournal.com]

It's super hard to explain this sort of thing to kids because categorization is how they make sense of the world, and gender is one of the most obvious and immediate ways to categorize people. Have you tried asking how they would feel if someone called them by the wrong pronouns?

(I had a nicely surprising moment involving misgendering of, I assume, the mutual friend you're talking about. We had a plumber come in, the exact kind of guy you picture when you hear the word "plumber," and he mistakenly used male pronouns; I corrected him, expecting a negative reaction or at least a weird look, but he immediately repeated the correction and used the right pronouns from then on. It may have had something to do with who was paying him, but it was still pretty cool how instantaneously and unquestioningly he fixed it.)

[mh75.livejournal.com]

They aren't doing it to be mean or disrespectful, but they obvious have a disconnect between what they are being told is correct and what they perceive to be correct. Making the point that it is her choice may circumvent that contradiction.

I had an interesting conversation with E today. She was showing me her Batman underpants, and explained that they were actually Batwoman underpants because they were girl's underpants, but she had changed them to Batman because she liked Batman better. I basically told her that was cool, and i was glad she liked her new underpants. But I found myself wondering-- was it good that she could change the gender at will, or was it unfortunate that Batman was so much more compelling that Batwoman would be?

(Actually, E appears to have a somewhat fluid gender self-perception. She doesn't strongly express a 'my gender is wrong' sentiment the way i've read that many trans-gender folks do, but she sometimes seem to be more of the 'my gender is right, but i wish it weren't' mindset. Certainly she often seems to relate better to boys than girls. Her desire to change the gender of her underpants may have been more of a personal than uniform judgement on gender preference. That is part of the reason i didn't ask her if the girl characters couldn't be just as good.

While i'm at it - she seems to be a little late to the gender ID party, as far as kids go. It is only in the past few months that she seems to be trying to associate with girls and expressly choose 'girl' choices on things. In some ways i think it is good for her to be noting social norms around her, but I hope it doesn't ultimately come at the expense of her individuality. I suppose it is a good sign that she can still adapt things to her own desires.

She told William over the weekend he shouldn't wear a hair clip because he was a boy. Thankfully M stuck up for him and said he could wear it if he wanted, boy or girl. Which is great, because that it what i always told M when she wondered why E didn't want to wear more dressed and skirts - we respect individuality beyond binary gender assignment.

Sorry. Was already thinking about some of this today.

[jedusor.livejournal.com]

Well... the pronouns she wants people to use to refer to her are her choice. The gender itself isn't, and I would be careful not to frame it in terms that would lead kids to believe that it is, because that can lead to dangerous ideas (e.g. that it's possible to change "back" at will).

I think kids subconsciously pick up on a lot of the subtle differences in adult expectations between boys and girls, and that may be part of what you're seeing with E. Like some gay people say they wish they were straight just because life is easier that way. I certainly eschewed "girly" things for a good chunk of my childhood, not so much because I personally disliked them but because I couldn't have them without also accepting the baggage of social judgment that comes with them.

It's definitely true in American society that the most compelling characters in fiction are usually men. Batwoman basically exists because DC didn't want people thinking Batman was gay--she's pretty much the crimefighting equivalent of a copycat (copybat?) criminal. Batman is way more iconic, not just an echo of an existing character, and I understand preferring him. But yeah, it's also possible she's not aware of any of that and just likes him better because he's a dude, which would be a bummer. Maybe I'll ask her about it sometime.

[mh75.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure that the kids are aware of all that other stuff. I mean, maybe E is, but, I don't think they really have any awareness of the totality of the super-hero universes. I think it is possible that they may prefer the big names (Batman, Superman, Spiderman) because they are far more likely to have heard their peers discussing them.

I think that, ideally, all kids could develop their individual gender identities, but its certainly not easy. How much are we encouraging standard gender roles by putting dresses in the girls' closets, but not in the boy's closet? Are we scarring them by allowing M to have a doll with many accoutrements while W has a ball chest? We could force more parity, but it feels like it could be stressful to the point of harm. Is that merely the result of our early gender-training? How much are other parents discouraging by steadfastly abstaining from pink clothes or showing much stronger verbal rewards for boy-behavior? Does it matter? Will it backfire? Will the kids normalize to their own personalities regardless?

[gerald_duck]

A point I would normally let slip by, except that here it's the topic of conversation: "We had a plumber come in […] and he mistakenly used male pronouns" — why "he" rather than "they"?

[jedusor.livejournal.com]

Because the fact that he appeared to be the sort of person who would be likely to react badly was relevant here, and gender presentation was a large part of that.

[katybeth]

Ours haven't started asking questions yet (or using third person pronouns yet), but they will soon. Something I want to think and talk about before then, but I am not finding enough words to do so in public comments.

[magickal-tara.livejournal.com]

I work in retail right now, but for the most part I manage to skip the gender pronouns. Calling people sweetie or hon generally makes them treat you better, and they are much less likely to yell at the cashier. Yays for that. And it is nice an neutral. Won't work everywhere, but it seems to go over well for me.

[gerald_duck]

Don't try that in the UK! I'm barely OK with being called "sweetie" or "hon" by a partner, let alone a shop assistant. (-8

[magickal-tara.livejournal.com]

I'll keep that in mind. :) Let's just say that in Missouri, it works pretty well.

[jedusor.livejournal.com]

That carries gender-specific implications too, though, they're just rooted in the gender presentation of the person you're talking to instead of inherent in the words. There's no good solution, really, barring the creation and widespread adoption of a gender-neutral honorific, which I don't think is happening anytime soon.

[jeffurrynpl.livejournal.com]

I'm the advisor of the LGBT group where I work and a year ago our president would start introductions by saying, "Please give your name and preferred pronoun...I prefer 'him' or 'Chico...'" So close...but not quite there. Now that I know him better I'm sure he thought "Chico" was a pronoun.

[jedusor.livejournal.com]

Oh dear.