Circumcision

[jedusor]

I can't believe this is even debatable. I can't believe that in a society we consider civilized, I have to actually present a structured argument against cutting off pieces of babies when they're born.

Comments

[tablesaw]

You seem to be using "exactly" in such a way as to reduce the two practices to the aspects that you find most salient to your interpretation and argument. This is misleading, as there are several differences—cultural, political, and simply factual—between the two.

I want to note particularly that your contrast between "western society" and examples that appear, to me at least, to be coded references to what you believe to be the "religious norms" of Islam are fueled by misinformation, as well as the impression that Islam does not (perhaps cannot) exist within western society. ojouchan, as it happens, is both a Muslim and a member of western society, giving her more intimate knowledge of these issues and the extent to which they do (or, more accurately, do not) represent "religious norms" as opposed to secular or cultural ones. Through my relationship with her, I personally have learned much about the experience of Muslims both in the United States and other "western" countries as well as in nations all over the world, as it is a subject dear to her heart, on which she loves to expound.

Perhaps, she would have done so here, had your characterization of her faith—and, by extension, her, and her mother, and her sister, and her friends—not been so disgustingly insulting, offensive, and ignorant.

[lonesomepolecat.livejournal.com]

Perhaps putting people in the stocks, branding or tar and feather would have been better examples. Stick to tortures limited to mostly Christian nations (although I think the stocks was pretty universal).

I wasn't even thinking of Islamic society when I wrote that. These are things that have happened in western society in the past and are no longer considered acceptable by many countries because they cause more harm overall. The limiting to western society was because these are part of other societies and cultures (and not just Islamic cultures, Christians do it too) but no longer part of the culture most (if not all) the people on this thread are part of.

The phrasing I used was because in many cultures and religions, genital mutilation of girls is considered normal and it's even done in hospitals so it's just as clean as circumcision (although there are variants that are worse, regardless of whether they're done by a doctor or not). However, in North America, Western Europe and Australasia, it's illegal and so most of what people see of it are horrific back yard jobs not too dissimilar to back yard abortions.

Culture and religion be damned, mutilating other people (especially infants) is just never acceptable. Sure, it's my opinion, but I find the practice repulsive.

Some other practices that have fallen (or are currently falling) by the wayside because they're more harmful than good:
* corporal punishment
* capital punishment (few states in the US are left with it and it's considered abhorrent by much of the world; there are only 3 countries that are considered fully developed that still have it)
* neutering of the physically or mentally handicapped
* torturing prisoners for information
* killing mentally or physically handicapped infants
* killing or physically maiming people for social crimes (real or perceived) e.g. infidelity
* religious conversion through invasion
* scarlet letter style punishments
* flagellation for cultural or criminal reasons
* slavery (oops, this one is condoned in many religious texts; it's still universally illegal)
* human branding

And the list goes on. Once these were all considered acceptable (and in some circles, were "the one true way" rather than merely acceptable). Read up on common criminal punishment in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries in Europe and the USA. Or common medical practices of the 19th and early 20th centuries (back before the wider populace understood even the basics and medical professionals were rarely better). Make sure you don't have anything in your stomach before you start....

The point I'm trying to make (if not obvious) is that many things were considered acceptable by our culture previously and no longer are (chances are you'd try and have any teacher who beat your child for disobedience put in jail) because we're moving away from practices that involve mutilation or physical pain. Circumcision is such a practice.

[tahnan.livejournal.com]

Never mind that it's not really even that clear that circumcision causes pain beyond what, say, vaccination does (see earlier comments); never mind that there's still a gigantic gap between the practices you list and circumcision; never mind that, rather than presenting an argument, you rely on emotionally loaded terminology like "mutilating" and "repulsive"...you don't even have your facts right. "Few states in the US" have capital punishment? The states on this map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Death_penalty_statutes_in_the_United_States.svg) don't fit my criteria for "few".

[lonesomepolecat.livejournal.com]

There are 50 states. Only 9 of which ran executions last year. Almost all executions were in TX. That is the information I was basing my statement on.

Yes, there's some loaded language there; I'm also more than a little pissed off so it reflects my feelings (and I'm not the only one; tabelsaw's reply was just as loaded).

I don't actually consider there to be as much of a gap as you do between something like corporal punishment or branding and circumcision. But, I doubt either of us is going to persuade the other on that point.