There's a secret that we keep/I won't sleep if you won't sleep

[jedusor]

Mom & Co. are back home from their travels, and the utter emptiness our refrigerator and pantry have suffered of late has been repaired with Mom's spicy coconut curry and Bill's fabulous bagels. Huzzah!

Also, I wrote a ton in my "Shit Nobody But Me Will Ever See" journal, hashing out my thoughts and feelings about current/past/future relationships, the differences between how I related to past friends and how I relate to new ones, my own morals and how much to compromise them for the sake of others, and the control dynamics of a weird situation I'm in. I think writing about all that was helpful, and I'm very proud of my little homemade therapy session. I should do it more often.

There's going to be a No On 2 protest outside Stowers tomorrow from 1-2pm, if anyone wants to join my family (minus Bill, who has been given strict instructions not to engage with the protesters) in telling these ignorant shitheads what stem cell research is.

I'm feeling rather good right about now :)

Comments

[thebitchingpost.livejournal.com]

What? Don't realize that if amendment no 2 passes, all the bloodthirsty doctors will be able to rip fetuses from the womb and murder infants in a pipe dream chase of curing diseases that God put on people deservedly? Why, with amendment 2 in place, it'll only be a small step until we lose an entire generation of people to maniacal physicians and their bloodsoaked wet dreams.

[jedusor.livejournal.com]

Ugh, have you seen those bumper stickers that say "they're lying, it's cloning, no on 2"? So fucking ridiculous.

[shoutingboy.livejournal.com]

I will say that if you make no effort to understand the arguments on their side, you run a real risk of being unpleasantly suprised and bewildered in a couple of weeks...

Which is to say, it is cloning. And to the extent that people say it isn't cloning, they are lying--or grossly misinformed. Now, it's fine to say "it's cloning, yay, I'm for cloning!" But for those people who are against human cloning, the bumper-sticker actually does convey some relevant information.

You probably won't be able to convince me that human cloning is no problem--or, more relevantly here, that embryo-destroying research is okay. But you can certainly convince me that the measure doesn't authorize those things--if that's actually the case. But my reading says otherwise. They've said they ban cloning, but only by tendentiously redefining the word:

(2) “Clone or attempt to clone a human being” means to implant in a uterus or attempt to implant in a uterus anything other than the product of fertilization of an egg of a human female by a sperm of a human male for the purpose of initiating a pregnancy that could result in the creation of a human fetus, or the birth of a human being.

Which is to say, creating a cloned embryo then destroying it is not prohibited by the amendment, and is, in fact, actually mandated. They just call it "somatic cell nuclear transfer", and hope nobody will notice. Dang those bumper-stickers, anyway!

[jedusor.livejournal.com]

SCNT is not human cloning. (http://www.missouricures.com/faq.php#SCNT) The process of creating a blastocyst is the first step of cloning, but that does not make stem cell research cloning. If you don't put the blastocyst in a uterus, it will never become anything except a cluster of 150 cells. And the stem cells derived from that blastocyst match perfectly to the cells of the person whose nucleus was used for the transfer, so they won't be rejected by that person's body. This has the potential to cure things like diabetes, Parkinson's, burns, spinal injuries, cancer, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

As to whether "embryo-destroying research" is okay: the embryos used in stem cell research that weren't created through SCNT come from in vitro fertilization clinics. When a couple undergoes the process of IVF, multiple embryos are created. One or two are used for the process, and the rest are frozen. If the couple doesn't want more children, they decide what to do with the unused embryos: they can donate them to research, throw them away, or keep them frozen indefinitely. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer that the embryos be used for life-saving research than just take up freezer space.

Why are the embryos so valuable, anyway? They're not humans, only potential humans. If wasting potential humans is morally wrong, then men sin every time they masturbate, and women sin every time they have a period.

...I wasn't going to get into this. *sigh*

[shoutingboy.livejournal.com]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to say "I support the things this amendment calls for, so I'm voting for it".

But your definition of "cloning" is not the definition used by most people--or, until ESCR became a hot issue, the definition used by most scientists. So when the proponents say "This amendment outlaws cloning! It just allows somatic cell nuclear transfer!", they're being dishonest. Whence the bumper-stickers.

It's one thing to try to convince people that they ought to support, int. al., cloned embryos, and creating embryos so as to destroy them for medical research. It's something else to try to trick people into authorizing that by telling them that they'd be doing the very opposite (i.e. leading them to believe they're voting to ban that very procedure).

And if you fail to trick people, please don't react by saying we're "ignorant shitheads". It makes you look, well, peevish.

'Why are the embryos so valuable, anyway?'

A perfectly reasonable question. My answer would be, because they're human life, made in the image of God. For that reason, I try to protect them. You think they're miscellaneous biological material of no import except insofar as they're useful, so you're comfortable destroying them.

The disagreement between us on that point is not scientific--it's metaphysical. So my disagreement with you does not make me "ignorant", or a "shithead".

If I may say, from all I've seen so far, I know a bit more about science than you do. Which is not so surprising, since i'm over twice your age. But it means you should be a little less cavalier about flinging accusations of ignorance.

'...I wasn't going to get into this.'

I'll stop responding if you want me to.

[jedusor.livejournal.com]

I've gotten my information about this subject from my stepdad (a Ph.D in biology), two biology teachers at my college (both also Ph.Ds), and a spokeswoman for Stowers Institute for Medical Research, where my stepdad works. Forgive me if I am slightly more inclined to accept their statements as fact than yours, however scientifically knowledgeable you consider yourself.

Had I known that there is actually someone on my flist who opposes embryonic stem cell research, I would probably not have used the phrase "ignorant shitheads." I do, however, think that legislating moral beliefs is stupid, and preventing people from getting valuable medical help (as well as stalling breakthrough scientific research) is a shitty thing to do.

[shoutingboy.livejournal.com]

'I've gotten my information about this subject from my stepdad...'

Well, if he calls me ignorant, I'll listen attentively. But I wouldn't be surprised to find out you're misunderstanding him.

If he's claiming, for example, that embryos have no moral claim on us, he's making not a biological argument but a metaphysical one--and most scientists know the difference. So perhaps you're hearing his personal opinion and mistaking it for his scientific one.

And if he's telling you that SCNT isn't cloning, he ought to also tell you that under the definition of "cloning" which scientists used until 2001 (i.e. until it became a political issue), it certainly is cloning. In fact, I think most scientists still use the word that way, except when they're filming advertisements in Missouri...

Still, that's largely a side-issue for me. My main objection isn't to cloning as such; it's to deliberately creating human embryos so as to destroy them for medical research. My objection would be much the same if the embryos were created with old-fashioned fertilization. Treating "leftover" embryos as garbage that can be experimented on at will is, to my mind, bad enough--deliberately creating the embryos so as to experiment on them is even worse. Adding cloning into the situation doesn't make it that much morally worse, to my mind, though it makes it considerably creepier.

'I do, however, think that legislating moral beliefs is stupid...'

So you're in favor of repealing the laws against rape? Me, I think rape should be outlawed. But I recognize that that's me imposing my moral beliefs ("rape is evil") on society. I've got no problem with that, but evidently you do.

Of course, most of society agrees with me about that. But they agree with me about cloning, too (ahem, I mean, about "somatic cell nuclear transfer").

[shoutingboy.livejournal.com]

'...if anyone wants to join my family (minus Bill, who has been given strict instructions not to engage with the protesters) in telling these ignorant shitheads what stem cell research is.'

I suspect the answer is going to turn out to be, "embryonic stem cell research is research that, int. al., destroys human embryos". And some people think that's a bigger problem than some other people do.

I guess I'm just a shithead, then...

[jedusor.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you don't live in Missouri.

[jedusor.livejournal.com]

To clarify: I am sorely tempted to argue this with you, but I am aware that there is little to nothing I can say that will change your mind, and because you're not a Missouri resident and thus your vote will not affect this amendment, I don't feel morally obligated to risk goodwill (on either of our parts) trying.

[shoutingboy.livejournal.com]

Fair enough! It's not on the ballot here, anyway. (Though I do get to vote for a parental notification law...)

[sharaigenee.livejournal.com]

When are you telling Shannon and Mindy that you're not coming in?

[jedusor.livejournal.com]

I e-mailed Mindy, and added in the e-mail that if I don't get a response, I'll check in with the office sometime today.

I realized that I don't have any actual classes today besides karate. I have work, then I'm going to that stem cell presentation, then I'm done for the day (unless Mindy and Shannon need me, in which case I'll do my office hours).